Discussion:
Definition of quality
Lars Aronsson
2007-09-19 01:13:12 UTC
Permalink
Looking at the current http://quality.wikimedia.org/
it seems that "Wikimedia Quality" is just a new name for
Wikipedia 1.0 or "stable versions". It might be a good name.
From another perspective, the word "quality" can be understood in
many different ways. One of them is the international standards
in the series ISO 9000, deployed in most industries in the western
world in the 1980s and 1990s.

Do the founders of Wikimedia Quality have any background in
industrial quality management, quality assurance or "six sigma"?

I'm not saying that all methods used in manufacturing industries
are directly applicable in Wikipedia. But I think that being
completely clueless can be harmful. So is there a need to read up?

In the modern industrial sense of "quality", it is always a
measurable entity, compared to a stated goal. It is essential
that the producer and consumer share an understanding of the
purpose of the delivered product or service, before you can start
to measure how well that purpose is met. A car with an expected
life of 5 years can be of good quality if this is what the
customer wants and expects and the car does last for 5 years.
This is in sharp contrast to the common view of the "man in the
street", who believes a car is of better quality if it lasts for
70 years than if it lasts for 40 years, the longer the better.
If a car lasts 40 years, increasing its life expectancy to 70
years might include gold-plating all electrical connectors. This
might make the car a lot more expensive, and that would be a waste
if this customer only needs this car to last for 5 years. Other
"improvements" might make the car more bulky and less economic in
other ways. Avoiding such suboptimal "improvements" is much what
quality control is about.

In designing for quality, it is essential that customer/user
expectations are investigated and fed back. There needs to be a
feedback loop of expectations and learning from experience into
the producing organization. This is usually illustrated as a
cycle of four steps: Plan, Do, Check, Act (PDCA). There's even a
Wikipedia article about that, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PDCA

In my opinion, the sharpest difference between proprietary,
commercial software and free software of the same kind, such as
Microsoft Office and Open Office, is that success or failure in
sales and marketing causes a strong feedback to the developers of
Microsoft Office. If the product fails to sell because it lacks
some feature, there is a very strong incentive to add that feature
in the next release. Even if free software is often stable and
reliable, its evolution is often slow and unpredictable and seldom
guided by the needs of potential users.

I'm not advocating properietary and commercial software. I'm a
Linux user since 1992 and an Emacs user since long before that.
What I'm saying is that "their system" (Microsoft's and Oracle's)
has a feedback loop that we could wish for.

Since Wikipedia has borrowed so much from the free software
movement, it has also inherited the lack of this strong feedback
loop. Both free software and Wikipedia do have another feedback
loop, where each user is encouraged to become a programmer and/or
text editor, but this mechanism is a lot weaker. Most
dissatisfied users will not become programmers/editors, but will
just silently drop out of the loop. In terms of control theory,
this is equivalent to attenuating the feedback loop, causing a
much slower signal response,
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Control_theory

So, one way to improve the quality of Wikipedia could be, I think,
to somehow capture that lost feedback.

Is this on the agenda for Wikimedia Quality? Should it be?
--
Lars Aronsson (lars-***@public.gmane.org)
Aronsson Datateknik - http://aronsson.se
John Erling Blad
2007-09-19 16:08:46 UTC
Permalink
very interesting thoughts! How shall we get a response about a potential
problem from a dissatisfied user that is about to leave the page, or
even the site. I don't know.
John E
Post by Lars Aronsson
Looking at the current http://quality.wikimedia.org/
it seems that "Wikimedia Quality" is just a new name for
Wikipedia 1.0 or "stable versions". It might be a good name.
From another perspective, the word "quality" can be understood in
many different ways. One of them is the international standards
in the series ISO 9000, deployed in most industries in the western
world in the 1980s and 1990s.
Do the founders of Wikimedia Quality have any background in
industrial quality management, quality assurance or "six sigma"?
I'm not saying that all methods used in manufacturing industries
are directly applicable in Wikipedia. But I think that being
completely clueless can be harmful. So is there a need to read up?
In the modern industrial sense of "quality", it is always a
measurable entity, compared to a stated goal. It is essential
that the producer and consumer share an understanding of the
purpose of the delivered product or service, before you can start
to measure how well that purpose is met. A car with an expected
life of 5 years can be of good quality if this is what the
customer wants and expects and the car does last for 5 years.
This is in sharp contrast to the common view of the "man in the
street", who believes a car is of better quality if it lasts for
70 years than if it lasts for 40 years, the longer the better.
If a car lasts 40 years, increasing its life expectancy to 70
years might include gold-plating all electrical connectors. This
might make the car a lot more expensive, and that would be a waste
if this customer only needs this car to last for 5 years. Other
"improvements" might make the car more bulky and less economic in
other ways. Avoiding such suboptimal "improvements" is much what
quality control is about.
In designing for quality, it is essential that customer/user
expectations are investigated and fed back. There needs to be a
feedback loop of expectations and learning from experience into
the producing organization. This is usually illustrated as a
cycle of four steps: Plan, Do, Check, Act (PDCA). There's even a
Wikipedia article about that, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PDCA
In my opinion, the sharpest difference between proprietary,
commercial software and free software of the same kind, such as
Microsoft Office and Open Office, is that success or failure in
sales and marketing causes a strong feedback to the developers of
Microsoft Office. If the product fails to sell because it lacks
some feature, there is a very strong incentive to add that feature
in the next release. Even if free software is often stable and
reliable, its evolution is often slow and unpredictable and seldom
guided by the needs of potential users.
I'm not advocating properietary and commercial software. I'm a
Linux user since 1992 and an Emacs user since long before that.
What I'm saying is that "their system" (Microsoft's and Oracle's)
has a feedback loop that we could wish for.
Since Wikipedia has borrowed so much from the free software
movement, it has also inherited the lack of this strong feedback
loop. Both free software and Wikipedia do have another feedback
loop, where each user is encouraged to become a programmer and/or
text editor, but this mechanism is a lot weaker. Most
dissatisfied users will not become programmers/editors, but will
just silently drop out of the loop. In terms of control theory,
this is equivalent to attenuating the feedback loop, causing a
much slower signal response,
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Control_theory
So, one way to improve the quality of Wikipedia could be, I think,
to somehow capture that lost feedback.
Is this on the agenda for Wikimedia Quality? Should it be?
Chad
2007-09-19 16:50:18 UTC
Permalink
I suppose you can't. It's not exactly like we have an exit survey. However,
involving the community in quality feedback would be a double-edged sword.
While I see the benefits of it that Lars pointed out, there is also the
issue that we commonly face--the fact that when we open up stuff to the
community, there's so many differing voices that the signal to noise ratio
gets out of whack, and it's hard to actually get anything done.

-Chad H.
Post by John Erling Blad
very interesting thoughts! How shall we get a response about a potential
problem from a dissatisfied user that is about to leave the page, or
even the site. I don't know.
John E
Post by Lars Aronsson
Looking at the current http://quality.wikimedia.org/
it seems that "Wikimedia Quality" is just a new name for
Wikipedia 1.0 or "stable versions". It might be a good name.
From another perspective, the word "quality" can be understood in
many different ways. One of them is the international standards
in the series ISO 9000, deployed in most industries in the western
world in the 1980s and 1990s.
Do the founders of Wikimedia Quality have any background in
industrial quality management, quality assurance or "six sigma"?
I'm not saying that all methods used in manufacturing industries
are directly applicable in Wikipedia. But I think that being
completely clueless can be harmful. So is there a need to read up?
In the modern industrial sense of "quality", it is always a
measurable entity, compared to a stated goal. It is essential
that the producer and consumer share an understanding of the
purpose of the delivered product or service, before you can start
to measure how well that purpose is met. A car with an expected
life of 5 years can be of good quality if this is what the
customer wants and expects and the car does last for 5 years.
This is in sharp contrast to the common view of the "man in the
street", who believes a car is of better quality if it lasts for
70 years than if it lasts for 40 years, the longer the better.
If a car lasts 40 years, increasing its life expectancy to 70
years might include gold-plating all electrical connectors. This
might make the car a lot more expensive, and that would be a waste
if this customer only needs this car to last for 5 years. Other
"improvements" might make the car more bulky and less economic in
other ways. Avoiding such suboptimal "improvements" is much what
quality control is about.
In designing for quality, it is essential that customer/user
expectations are investigated and fed back. There needs to be a
feedback loop of expectations and learning from experience into
the producing organization. This is usually illustrated as a
cycle of four steps: Plan, Do, Check, Act (PDCA). There's even a
Wikipedia article about that, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PDCA
In my opinion, the sharpest difference between proprietary,
commercial software and free software of the same kind, such as
Microsoft Office and Open Office, is that success or failure in
sales and marketing causes a strong feedback to the developers of
Microsoft Office. If the product fails to sell because it lacks
some feature, there is a very strong incentive to add that feature
in the next release. Even if free software is often stable and
reliable, its evolution is often slow and unpredictable and seldom
guided by the needs of potential users.
I'm not advocating properietary and commercial software. I'm a
Linux user since 1992 and an Emacs user since long before that.
What I'm saying is that "their system" (Microsoft's and Oracle's)
has a feedback loop that we could wish for.
Since Wikipedia has borrowed so much from the free software
movement, it has also inherited the lack of this strong feedback
loop. Both free software and Wikipedia do have another feedback
loop, where each user is encouraged to become a programmer and/or
text editor, but this mechanism is a lot weaker. Most
dissatisfied users will not become programmers/editors, but will
just silently drop out of the loop. In terms of control theory,
this is equivalent to attenuating the feedback loop, causing a
much slower signal response,
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Control_theory
So, one way to improve the quality of Wikipedia could be, I think,
to somehow capture that lost feedback.
Is this on the agenda for Wikimedia Quality? Should it be?
_______________________________________________
Wikiquality-l mailing list
http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikiquality-l
John Erling Blad
2007-09-19 17:05:09 UTC
Permalink
I've done some user testing previously and I guess not that hard to get
_some_ feed back, it is getting sufficient fedd back which are the
problem. The signal to noise ratio shouldn't discourage anyone, it is
very likely there will be no response at all.
John E
Post by Chad
I suppose you can't. It's not exactly like we have an exit survey.
However, involving the community in quality feedback would be a
double-edged sword. While I see the benefits of it that Lars pointed
out, there is also the issue that we commonly face--the fact that when
we open up stuff to the community, there's so many differing voices
that the signal to noise ratio gets out of whack, and it's hard to
actually get anything done.
-Chad H.
very interesting thoughts! How shall we get a response about a potential
problem from a dissatisfied user that is about to leave the page, or
even the site. I don't know.
John E
Post by Lars Aronsson
Looking at the current http://quality.wikimedia.org/
it seems that "Wikimedia Quality" is just a new name for
Wikipedia 1.0 or "stable versions". It might be a good name.
From another perspective, the word "quality" can be understood in
many different ways. One of them is the international standards
in the series ISO 9000, deployed in most industries in the western
world in the 1980s and 1990s.
Do the founders of Wikimedia Quality have any background in
industrial quality management, quality assurance or "six sigma"?
I'm not saying that all methods used in manufacturing industries
are directly applicable in Wikipedia. But I think that being
completely clueless can be harmful. So is there a need to read up?
In the modern industrial sense of "quality", it is always a
measurable entity, compared to a stated goal. It is essential
that the producer and consumer share an understanding of the
purpose of the delivered product or service, before you can start
to measure how well that purpose is met. A car with an expected
life of 5 years can be of good quality if this is what the
customer wants and expects and the car does last for 5 years.
This is in sharp contrast to the common view of the "man in the
street", who believes a car is of better quality if it lasts for
70 years than if it lasts for 40 years, the longer the better.
If a car lasts 40 years, increasing its life expectancy to 70
years might include gold-plating all electrical connectors. This
might make the car a lot more expensive, and that would be a waste
if this customer only needs this car to last for 5 years. Other
"improvements" might make the car more bulky and less economic in
other ways. Avoiding such suboptimal "improvements" is much what
quality control is about.
In designing for quality, it is essential that customer/user
expectations are investigated and fed back. There needs to be a
feedback loop of expectations and learning from experience into
the producing organization. This is usually illustrated as a
cycle of four steps: Plan, Do, Check, Act (PDCA). There's even a
Wikipedia article about that, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PDCA
In my opinion, the sharpest difference between proprietary,
commercial software and free software of the same kind, such as
Microsoft Office and Open Office, is that success or failure in
sales and marketing causes a strong feedback to the developers of
Microsoft Office. If the product fails to sell because it lacks
some feature, there is a very strong incentive to add that feature
in the next release. Even if free software is often stable and
reliable, its evolution is often slow and unpredictable and seldom
guided by the needs of potential users.
I'm not advocating properietary and commercial software. I'm a
Linux user since 1992 and an Emacs user since long before that.
What I'm saying is that "their system" (Microsoft's and Oracle's)
has a feedback loop that we could wish for.
Since Wikipedia has borrowed so much from the free software
movement, it has also inherited the lack of this strong feedback
loop. Both free software and Wikipedia do have another feedback
loop, where each user is encouraged to become a programmer and/or
text editor, but this mechanism is a lot weaker. Most
dissatisfied users will not become programmers/editors, but will
just silently drop out of the loop. In terms of control theory,
this is equivalent to attenuating the feedback loop, causing a
much slower signal response,
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Control_theory
So, one way to improve the quality of Wikipedia could be, I think,
to somehow capture that lost feedback.
Is this on the agenda for Wikimedia Quality? Should it be?
_______________________________________________
Wikiquality-l mailing list
http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikiquality-l
------------------------------------------------------------------------
_______________________________________________
Wikiquality-l mailing list
http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikiquality-l
Lars Aronsson
2007-09-19 23:10:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by Chad
I suppose you can't. It's not exactly like we have an exit
survey. However, involving the community in quality feedback
would be a double-edged sword.
Involving "the community" is what we're doing today. But it's the
people *outside* of our current community that we need to involve,
and something like an exit survey should be a good tool. Why did
you *not* buy a Chrysler? It seems www.ihatewikipedia.com is
already owned by some less serious player, but a complaints
website like that focused on improving Wikipedia (and filtering
out the noise) could be one way to implement an exit survey.
This is a part of marketing/outreach rather than technical
solutions for "stable versions".

My question is if this is part of "Wikimedia Quality" or not?
--
Lars Aronsson (lars-***@public.gmane.org)
Aronsson Datateknik - http://aronsson.se
Chad
2007-09-20 13:58:57 UTC
Permalink
I would think so. There are many sites out there that exist to critique the
Foundation and its various projects. However, we were set up an official
"Customer Feedback" area, where both regular users as well as drive by's
could easily give us feedback on what works, what doesn't work, what can be
improved, et cetera. Something like this could potentially be a valuable
source of feedback on our quality.

-Chad H.
Post by Lars Aronsson
Post by Chad
I suppose you can't. It's not exactly like we have an exit
survey. However, involving the community in quality feedback
would be a double-edged sword.
Involving "the community" is what we're doing today. But it's the
people *outside* of our current community that we need to involve,
and something like an exit survey should be a good tool. Why did
you *not* buy a Chrysler? It seems www.ihatewikipedia.com is
already owned by some less serious player, but a complaints
website like that focused on improving Wikipedia (and filtering
out the noise) could be one way to implement an exit survey.
This is a part of marketing/outreach rather than technical
solutions for "stable versions".
My question is if this is part of "Wikimedia Quality" or not?
--
Aronsson Datateknik - http://aronsson.se
_______________________________________________
Wikiquality-l mailing list
http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikiquality-l
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